What's this loud tapping sound from my new engine?

[DuckRyder]

... I heard from Tom that when an engine bore is increased, it can make the engine more difficult to cool. I also heard that in this situation it wouldn't matter very much (I'm guessing because the FE engine simply has a lot of "meat"). What are your thoughts?

It sounds like he may have been talking about when over-bored too large the cylinder walls get thin and it can lead to all sorts of problems. This is why the sonic check is done.

[*] Tom would like to build the engine with 9.7:1 compression. He likes this ratio because there's a little room for carbon build up before the compression gets so high that detonation becomes a real problem (on high octane pump gas).

Should be good, depending on the cam and ICA (Intake Closing Angel) will probably take pump premium. I am sure Tom will tailor the static to the cam to get a street-able Dynamic Compression Ratio.

It looks like I have some reading to do before I'll understand these terms (other than "pump premium" ), but I'm also sure that he'll take tremendous care with the specifications!

This might help:

http://cochise.uia.net/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html

Very basically if the intake valve closes later (the piston is higher in the bore) the pressure is less. A few degrees can make a big difference. The actual compression of air cannot start until the intake valve closes so if it closes later then the volume in the cylinder is less.

[*] I heard from Tom that unlike their flat tappet camshafts, the Comp Cams roller camshafts are OK.

Can you expand at all on this, it sounds like Tom might not care for Comp flat tappet cams (Like me), did he have bad experiences?

If I remember correctly, I did hear Tom voice disapproval of the Comp Cams flat tappet camshafts, although I don't think I asked him for any anecdotes (or I've already forgotten--sorry)! This said, I will definitely be recording more video of Tom's wisdom before this adventure is complete, and I could ask him specifically about this.

It isn't that important, but if it comes up. It is more curiosity on my part, people have strong brand preferences, sometimes without good reasons (sometimes with very good reasons).

[*] I asked Tom about stroker kits. He said that although it would increase the performance potential a lot, it would also add an extra $2,000 on to the price tag for the engine.

Since the rods appear good and it sounds as if the crankshaft will polish (polish and turn is a distinction) this becomes a matter of Cost/Benefit ratio, more CID is more displacement. If the 390 crank will simply polish up, then thats a minimal investment. If it requires turning to the next under-size, then a slightly larger investment. Some people feel that going .020 or .030 under on a crank weakens it, I think that is a non-issue here. I do wonder if Tom might have access to a 428 crank core to me a 300-400 additional investment to go to standard 428 would be worth it. (you'd have to change the flywheel too though).

Thanks for giving me your thoughts on this! I could ask Tom about whether or not he has a 428 crankshaft. I might hesitate to do this though, because if the 428 crankshaft did cost around $350, and the flywheel around $250, it could start to add up. After all, I already own a brand new Centerforce 390 flywheel. But I will ask Tom--thanks very much for this suggestion!!!"

He might be able to balance the 428 crank using "Mallory metal" so that the 390 flywheel could be used. The heavy (Mallory) metal can be costly though. It is worth discussing and it is possible that using a more common 428 piston might reduce the piston cost a little.

[*] I asked Tom about the Edelbrock aluminum heads.

I'd go with Tom's preferences here. I was glad to see the air cooled head being CC'ed in the video (what was that, Lycoming, Continental or perhaps Porsche?).

That was a Porsche head (he discussed it with another customer who stopped by)!

I thought that the port looked familiar...

I think it is important to remember that the F250 has a larger tire (what ~31 - ~32" diameter?) than what most of us are used to (~28") so the 3.73:1 gear won't have the same cruise characteristics as an F100 or Mustang/Torino/Fairlane/Comet/Galaxie etc, etc...

This is news to me! Thanks for pointing this out. From the small amount of experimentation I've done with RPM calculators, I have noticed what a big difference an inch or two of tire diameter can make.

I'll certainly try the truck out with its current setup for a while before making any changes. I'll probably be doing very little freeway driving for a few years anyhow, since I'll most likely be taking a route through town to work (instead of the freeway).

Indeed, If you can post your rear tire size we could probably figure out a much closer estimate.

Last night I was reading, "How to Rebuild BIG-BLOCK FORD ENGINES," by Steve Christ, and came across this passage (page 32):

Some 361/391 FT blocks are cast with thicker main-bearing webs and additional ribs in between. This increases their weight about 20 pounds over the FE 390. Heavier 361/391 FT blocks do not have the 352 as cast on the left front of the standard FE block. Most heavy blocks have a mirror-image 105 on the left front, though this is missing on some blocks.

And in a caption under an image of the "105" on a block (on page 33), Steve Christ says:

In place of the 352 found on most FE blocks, many heavy-duty FT cylinder blocks have mirror image 105 on left front. In some cases, this area is left blank on heavy-duty blocks. HD blocks have additional main-bearing support and thicker main-bearing webs.

So! Does this mean I've scored with this 105 Mirror block even more significantly than I initially thought? And does this mean that I've actually got an FT block instead of an FE?

I don't believe that is correct, I did notice that your block appears to have the stronger webs, but I don't think you can say with any degree of certainty that every 105 block has them and can go to a 428 bore. In fact, I don't think you can say much with certainty on FE blocks, they have been found with a great many casting anomalies. (like cross bolt provisions on one side but not the other) Some research over at the FE forum might turn up more information.

[sideoilerfe]

All of my 4 speed F250 trucks have been 4.10:1 ratio and all of the auto F250's have been 3.73:1. I think your 3.73:1 ratio with the 4 speed is fine. You probably have 31" tires so you'll be ok on the freeway. After all, you're not going to be doing 80 MPH continuously.

[70shortwide]

All of my 4 speed F250 trucks have been 4.10:1 ratio and all of the auto F250's have been 3.73:1. I think your 3.73:1 ratio with the 4 speed is fine. You probably have 31" tires so you'll be ok on the freeway. After all, you're not going to be doing 80 MPH continuously.

I dunno, He lives in California... them people are crazy

[ToughOldFord]

I dunno, He lives in California... them people are crazy

After my first visit to the east coast some years ago I no longer make comments about California drivers. We all drive like grandmas here compared to the folk over there.

[robroy]

Good evening ToughOldFord, Robert, SideOilerFE, 70ShortWide, and 70_F100! Thanks for replying (I'm referencing an older reply from 70_F100, but thanks again)!

More than likely not. The FT usually isn't drilled for side mounts and to use a FE distributor you'd have to use an adapter as they have a larger hole in the block.

Okay, I see! Now that you mention it, I remember these other differences you're describing.

In fact, here's a good thread on FT differences.

Thank you! I'll read through that thread to better understand this.

... I heard from Tom that when an engine bore is increased, it can make the engine more difficult to cool.

It sounds like he may have been talking about when over-bored too large the cylinder walls get thin and it can lead to all sorts of problems. This is why the sonic check is done.

Okay, it sounds like you're probably right!

It looks like I have some reading to do before I'll understand these terms (other than "pump premium" )

This might help:

http://cochise.uia.net/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html

Excellent, thanks!!! I'll read this.

Very basically if the intake valve closes later (the piston is higher in the bore) the pressure is less. A few degrees can make a big difference. The actual compression of air cannot start until the intake valve closes so if it closes later then the volume in the cylinder is less.

Fascinating! Thanks for this explanation--it will probably help me understand the DynamicCR article better.

This said, I will definitely be recording more video of Tom's wisdom before this adventure is complete, and I could ask him specifically about this.

It isn't that important, but if it comes up. It is more curiosity on my part, people have strong brand preferences, sometimes without good reasons (sometimes with very good reasons).

I know what you mean. I'll ask him about this, even if just to satisfy your curiosity!

He might be able to balance the 428 crank using "Mallory metal" so that the 390 flywheel could be used. The heavy (Mallory) metal can be costly though. It is worth discussing and it is possible that using a more common 428 piston might reduce the piston cost a little.

That does sound interesting! I'll mention these things to Tom and see what he thinks.

Come to think of it, another thing Tom mentioned was that increased displacement would decrease the engine's fuel economy. While that's not a big concern for me, he made sure I understood this. I suppose this is in contrast to an upgrade like a roller camshaft and valve lifter kit, which--as I understand it--increases both power and efficiency.

Indeed, If you can post your rear tire size we could probably figure out a much closer estimate.

When I find my tape measure I'll get this and post it here! Thanks!!!

does this mean that I've actually got an FT block instead of an FE?

I don't believe that is correct, I did notice that your block appears to have the stronger webs, but I don't think you can say with any degree of certainty that every 105 block has them and can go to a 428 bore. In fact, I don't think you can say much with certainty on FE blocks, they have been found with a great many casting anomalies. (like cross bolt provisions on one side but not the other) Some research over at the FE forum might turn up more information.

Okay! It's interesting to learn about all the variations with these engines. Tom even has an FE block in his shop now that's an experimental block, which I suppose means that it's either one-of-a-kind or a member of a very short run!

All of my 4 speed F250 trucks have been 4.10:1 ratio and all of the auto F250's have been 3.73:1. I think your 3.73:1 ratio with the 4 speed is fine. You probably have 31" tires so you'll be ok on the freeway. After all, you're not going to be doing 80 MPH continuously.

Interesting, thanks for letting me know! With the stock 360 (which ran quite poorly), the truck did roar on the at any speed above around 45. But I've done so many changes to the truck by now, that I'll just have to take its measure anew. And regarding speed on the highway, I'm comfortable cruising at 55 most of the time, unless I become a hazard by holding people up.

I dunno, He lives in California... them people are crazy

Yes, and I'm the craziest one!

After my first visit to the east coast some years ago I no longer make comments about California drivers. We all drive like grandmas here compared to the folk over there.

Interesting! Maybe some day I'll visit there and test that out.

What about the following quote:

"Block Painted With 3 Coats Of High Temp Ceramic Engine Paint Customers Choice Of Color"

There is no way that paint was high-temp OR ceramic.

I've been doing a little research on this point. According to Archive.org's "Wayback Machine," which supplies historical, recorded copies of web sites, the Proformance Unlimited advertisement for my engine did not mention using this "High Temp Ceramic Engine Paint" in April of 2008. I ordered my engine just a few months later, so it's entirely possible that when I ordered the engine, the web advertisement did not make this claim!

Furthermore, the invoice I received from them doesn't mention this. All it says is "Painted Color of Choice."

So it seems that there's no fair basis for me to raise this issue with them. This said, it obviously would have been nice to have had a higher quality paint job on the engine. But I'm not aware of any specific claims that they failed to live up to.

For your analysis and amusement, here's the invoice I received from them--note that it shows my old Palo Alto address (before I moved to Salinas):




ToughOldFord, Robert, SideOilerFE, 70ShortWide, and 70_F100, thanks very much for your excellent advice!!!
Robroy

[70shortwide]

looks like you were shorted a set of H-beam rods too

edit: its weird that they didnt break down how your money was spent. they just charged you 8400 for a block... most shops would have an itemized list with individual prices.

[robroy]

Good evening Jeff, thanks for replying!

looks like you were shorted a set of H-beam rods too

Oh is this so? I'm not familiar with the difference between H-beam and I-beam rods, so I didn't pick up on this difference. Are these H-beam rods more desirable than the rods I wound up with? EDIT: I just did a Google Images search for both types and see what you mean! The H-beam type rods look stronger.

Thanks again Jeff!
Robroy

[70shortwide]

I may be mistaken. ( I didnt search very hard for the post where you mentioned it) but I believe you mentioned that the stock rods were reconditioned and used in your motor? I would prefer the eagle H beams, they are an aftermarket stronger rod. not that they wouldnt have held up in this combo, but it looks like its another part that you paid for and didnt receive?

I havent ever built an fe, but eagle is a well known brand and provides a good product. where the stock rods are likely strong "enough" I believe eagles would be stronger. someone chime in here and say whether they would be beneficial with this build...

[robroy]

'Evening Jeff!

edit: its weird that they didnt break down how your money was spent. they just charged you 8400 for a block... most shops would have an itemized list with individual prices.

My thoughts exactly! When I first began dealing with Proformance Unlimited, this is one of the first things I noticed. I asked Steve if he could provide me an itemized list that showed how much each part cost, but he wasn't interested in doing this.

At the time, I naively thought that engine builders just operated that way, and that I was asking for something rather out of the ordinary!

Then I saw Tom Lucas's draft invoice. Although he doesn't necessarily spell out every single nut and bolt, it does have all the major components itemized on there, with prices. I didn't know what I was missing before now!

I may be mistaken. ( I didnt search very hard for the post where you mentioned it) but I believe you mentioned that the stock rods were reconditioned and used in your motor?

You know, I may have mentioned this, but I don't remember it now. I'll ask Tom exactly what connecting rods he found in there, just to be sure.

I would prefer the eagle H beams, they are an aftermarket stronger rod.

Good to know!

not that they wouldnt have held up in this combo, but it looks like its another part that you paid for and didnt receive?

This could be! And since this is a potentially factual discrepancy between what I was promised and what I received, I can add it to my list (after I confirm it with Tom).

I havent ever built an fe, but eagle is a well known brand and provides a good product. where the stock rods are likely strong "enough" I believe eagles would be stronger. someone chime in here and say whether they would be beneficial with this build...

Interesting! Yeah I'll be curious to here what folks say.

Thanks very much for noticing that detail on the invoice Jeff!
Robroy

[OldRedFord]

I dont think i saw mentioned new cam bearings in the Por-Formance Limited invoice. Or did I miss that.

[DuckRyder]

390 FE rods are quite strong, I don't really see "H" beam rods as necessary.

One thing that has been bothering me for a while about PU, and that invoice is even worse than the website, is that in my opinion the information is crafted to make the reader think that that they are getting something they are not (or at least more than what they get).

Most shops would at the minimum itemize the parts individually (with exception of small stuff which would be "shop supplies").

Edit: Oh on the tire, if you can just give the size ( like 235/75/16) we can figure the nominal height and or revolutions per mile. ( looks like standard was 800x16.5)

[70shortwide]

390 FE rods are quite strong, I don't really see "H" beam rods as necessary.

thats kinda what I was thinking. sounded as if tom was planning to reuse the stock rods as well. I think we agree that they should be tough enough for the job with him backing them.

the way I see it, If he paid for them, he should have them. poorformance unlimited is starting to look more and more crooked imho

[robroy]

Good afternoon Tim, Robert, and Jeff, thanks very much for your excellent replies!

I dont think i saw mentioned new cam bearings in the Por-Formance Limited invoice. Or did I miss that.

I think you're right! Yet based on the nature of the invoice, it doesn't surprise me that there would be omissions. It appears to be more of a stream-of-conscious invoice than an actual, logical itemization. It looks like a rough draft of some kind doesn't it?

390 FE rods are quite strong, I don't really see "H" beam rods as necessary.

Ah-ha, thanks for letting me know!

One thing that has been bothering me for a while about PU, and that invoice is even worse than the website, is that in my opinion the information is crafted to make the reader think that that they are getting something they are not (or at least more than what they get).

I know exactly what you mean. A list that's incomplete, somewhat inaccurate, and lacks itemized prices is dubious at best. It leaves me thinking, "What exactly am I paying for here?" In retrospect, I should have paid more attention to my intuition up front, which was saying much the same thing. I kept thinking, "Am I expecting too much to want to know about every single detail here?"

Most shops would at the minimum itemize the parts individually (with exception of small stuff which would be "shop supplies").

Good to know!

Edit: Oh on the tire, if you can just give the size ( like 235/75/16) we can figure the nominal height and or revolutions per mile. ( looks like standard was 800x16.5)

Oh! That makes complete sense. I read this on the side of a tire, "9.50R16.5 LT 116/1120 M+S LOAD RANGE D." I'm quite ignorant on the subject of tires; does this string contain the size information?

390 FE rods are quite strong, I don't really see "H" beam rods as necessary.

thats kinda what I was thinking. sounded as if tom was planning to reuse the stock rods as well. I think we agree that they should be tough enough for the job with him backing them.

Excellent! Good to know that they'll work, at any rate.

the way I see it, If he paid for them, he should have them. poorformance unlimited is starting to look more and more crooked imho

I completely agree that I should have received what I paid for! About being crooked, my inclination is to attribute something like this to a mistake rather than meditated deception. Yet either way, they ought to be liable to provide the parts I paid for. I'll have to confirm the exact make and part number of the connecting rods with Tom!

Tim, Robert, and Jeff, thank you again for your fantastic replies!
Robroy

[67mann]

Oh! That makes complete sense. I read this on the side of a tire, "9.50R16.5 LT 116/1120 M+S LOAD RANGE D." I'm quite ignorant on the subject of tires; does this string contain the size information?

1st--Let me comend you on your approach to dealing with this mess and glad to see things coming around for ya.

Off topic to this thread and asking this Q for my own knowledge too---Are all 16.5 tire--split rim or just certain trucks and in this day and age are 16.5 tires irregular to get or come by

Sorry Robroy ,for jumpin in here,but ya got all the Xperts around that may answer this

[DuckRyder]

I read this on the side of a tire, "9.50R16.5 LT 116/1120 M+S LOAD RANGE D." I'm quite ignorant on the subject of tires; does this string contain the size information?

Yep, 9.50 x 16.5 appears to be a hard to find size now, but looks like they are about 31" tall with ~682 RPM from what I can find.

I completely agree that I should have received what I paid for!

Oh, I agree as well, I didn't mean to imply otherwise...

Most seem to agree that stock 390FE rods with ARP bolts properly installed and torques are as good (or better) than the old "LeMans" rod.

I was cruising the FE Forum earlier and it seems Eagle might not be the way to go at least for an FE.